After using iron sights for years, I switched to a Holosun 507C on my Glock 45 and it felt like I was learning all over again. At first, finding the dot was hard, but once I got it, my follow-up shots and how I tracked targets got way better than I thought they would. I still like iron sights but the red dot just adds something that works for me now.
My take on red dots on pistols
- Thread starter Jon
- Start date
I learned how to shoot handguns many years ago, first by my Dad in the back yard with a S&W Model 19, Then in the Army with a 1911, all with iron sights. Iron sights were my friend. It didn't matter if I had a revolver, a 1911 or as of late a M17 or Sig P365, all had irons and irons were always there, didn't have to worry whether they were there, day or night, some even had night sights. Speaking of night sights, just because your handgun has night sights does not auto magically mean you will be able to shoot in the dark. When the sun goes down or the lights are turned off the world changes around you. If there is a chance that you might find yourself in the dark and having to shoot it's best to get some training into shooting in the dark.
Moving right along, As time went on there were different sight systems introduced. Scopes added bulk and was composed of a small niche of competitive shooters and hunters. Laser sights actually, depending on their configuration, were a worthwhile addition with limitations, those being how they were turned on, the useful range and the issue that the red dots could not be seen in bright light. I did try and still have two handguns with lasers on them, both are Crimson Trace, are mounted in the grips and have an activation button so that when you grip the handgun to shoot they automatically illuminate giving you an accurate aiming point. If you have to physically turn on the laser to use it, then it's about useless in any kind of tactical situation.
Now we move on to the topic of discussion, the red dot sight. Personally I don't much care for them. That, however, does not mean that they are not useful. Several years ago a group of us who were more curious than anything else got together and booked a handgun class out at Vortex Edge out in Barneveld. it essentially was an introduction to shooting a handgun with a red dot sight.
Before I go on, If you ever want first-class firearms training, do not hesitate to take a class out at Vortex Edge. Their instructors and training are second to nobody else, including the big-nam training centers you hear about all the time. They are here in Wisconsin and no matter where you might have to drive in from it's worth the drive. The training is fantastic and at a fraction of the cost of what you would pay elsewhere. All firearms, ammo, targets and instruction is provided. Just show up at their door ready to shoot, learn and have a fantastic time. And by the way, I am in no way connected to Vortex other than being a very happy and satisfied customer, long time instructor that recognizes and appreciates quality training when I encounter it. I do not get paid for these comments, they are simply words of wisdom from me to you,
Continuing on. All training starts in the classroom where you learn the basics about what you are about to learn. The firearms that we used were Glocks. I am not a Glock person and at the time to me a Glock was a Glock. Looking back they were either 17's or 19's. There were both paper targets as well as plates and as I remember and this could be wrong, set up at 30 feet. From there we learned all about how to shoot the red dot. When we left there we all could accurately shoot a pistol with a red dot installed.
Do I have a red dot? Yes I do. It's a Vortex Venom 6 moa. It is currently sitting in it's box with adapter plates for Sig M17 and P365 9mm pistols. It has been mounted at various times on both handguns. I do not keep it mounted for many reasons, primarily because I do a lot of target shooting, all done with iron sights. A red dot does not lend itself to concealed carry. The extra bulk just does not go along with trying to hide a handgun. My level 2 OWB holster is cut to allow for a red dot or an under the barrel laser. Both have been mounted at various times. The P365 is a level 1, IWB also cut to allow for a red dot.
With the red dot installed it digs into my side and is totally uncomfortable. Other things I find as an issue is that it is battery powered. While the claim on battery life is 35000 hours. Shortly after I mounted it on the M17 I went out to the range to do some practice shooting and Lo and Behold, the battery was dead. Now this was most likely a battery issue, since the replacement has been installed for years and still works, but it does point out the fact that it is battery operated and thus not 100% reliable due to the battery.
I don't have a red dot mounted, but I still follow along with the various models and improvements. I do admit that if the new Vortex Defender - CCW solar micro red dot ever comes with a green dot I will probably buy it.
So there is my experience and take on red dots. It is up to you whether you decide to try one here is a pointer worth listening to. Sight in the red dot to hit exactly the same spot as your iron sights. Depending on how you hold your handgun the spot where the red dot is in the window does not necessarily have to be aligned with the irons. This is because the sighting principles are different between the two sighting systems. If you align the red dot to the point of impact when shooting irons, then when you raise the pistol like you do when shooting irons, both the irons and dot will show up at the same time and you won't have to hunt for the dot.
Have fun, Good Luck and Good Shooting
Indigo22
Well-known member
When I purchased my used Ruger 22/45 it had a FF3 red dot on it with an 8moa dot. Aside from the dot looking like a cluster of grapes it was indeed accurate... Pie plate accurate. I mean at 15~20 yards I could keep it on a pie plate but that was the extent of it. I'll admit this issue was mainly with my eyes. Within a couple weeks I had sold it to a steel challenge fellow that was ecstatic with the deal and liked it immensely. I upgraded the stock iron sights to FireSights and loved them. I later picked up a TRS-25 tube style sight to try out that had a 2moa dot that didn't bloom into a grape cluster. I learned to shoot it almost as quickly as my open sights in short order, and have mounted it on several different firearms before putting it back on my 22/45 where it now resides. If I were to remove the red dot from this gun I'd likely shoot it more. I like the firesights better. My humble opinion... take it or leave it. I do have a Burris 2x pistol scope that I have been wanting to try out and if I ever get around to picking up a set of rings this pistol will be the test bed.
I've had many different reddot sights, scopes, Holo sights ect. on handguns over the years, mostly on hunting type guns like T/C Contenders and Ruger Super Blackhawks .. I've tried a few dot sights on defense type guns and so far the only one I like is this one
https://www.primaryarms.com/holosun-he507c-x2-pistol-green-dot-sight-acss-vulcan-reticle
https://www.primaryarms.com/holosun-he507c-x2-pistol-green-dot-sight-acss-vulcan-reticle
I started watching the video and, after a relatively short time I tired the guy liking to listen to himself talk, which is typical of many videos these days. I took a basic pistol course out at Vortex Edge that taught the proper way to use a red dot. I have a Vortex Venom, which has been on and off both my Sig M17 and P365X. Right now it is sitting on a shelf down in my workshop. There are several features that I do not like about a red dot. It adds bulk to the handgun, which makes it difficult to conceal.
The M17 is a service weapon, and it has a home in a Level 2 kaydex holster cut for both a red dot and a laser. The laser mounts under the barrel and has a button on the grip that turns on the laser as soon as you grip the handgun. With a laser there is no need to raise the handgun much above waist level. As soon as you can get the laser on the target you can start shooting. No need for either iron or red dots. This cuts down the time required to draw and shoot almost in half. There are limits with a laser. Distance is one of them, Beyond 25 yards they have a tendency to fade out, especially with a red laser. Green lasers are more visible especially in bright light. A red laser in bright sunlight turns almost invisible beyond 10 yards.
A red or preferably Green dot sight has an advantage that it is always visible and useful at longer ranges. With a properly sighted in red/green dot there are no issues finding the dot. Dots are adjustable. If one adjusts the red/green dot to hit where the iron sights are aiming then you do not have to shift your grip or hold to compensate for the dot. Raise the pistol the same way you do with your irons and there is your dot.
When the red dot is mounted on the P365 the additional height makes concealing the pistol a bit more difficult, Another issue is that with an IWB holster the red dot uncomfortably digs into your body. That issue goes away with a OWB holster, but so does the concealment. For us ladies who favor in the bra holsters they are way to uncomfortable when poking into sensitive areas. Conversely my Kimber Micro 9 has a laser in the grips that also comes on as soon as you grip the firearm.
Are red/green dots practical? I have to say yes for service firearms, not so much for concealed carry. Vortex has come out with a new line of red dot called the Defender series. They are more compact than previous red/green dots. Prices range from $349.99 to $599.99 dependent upon what features you want including a solar option. I'm considering a Defender - ccw with a 3moa green dot. It may find it's way onto the P365 and hopefully with it's smaller size will be usable with a IWB CCW holster.
The M17 is a service weapon, and it has a home in a Level 2 kaydex holster cut for both a red dot and a laser. The laser mounts under the barrel and has a button on the grip that turns on the laser as soon as you grip the handgun. With a laser there is no need to raise the handgun much above waist level. As soon as you can get the laser on the target you can start shooting. No need for either iron or red dots. This cuts down the time required to draw and shoot almost in half. There are limits with a laser. Distance is one of them, Beyond 25 yards they have a tendency to fade out, especially with a red laser. Green lasers are more visible especially in bright light. A red laser in bright sunlight turns almost invisible beyond 10 yards.
A red or preferably Green dot sight has an advantage that it is always visible and useful at longer ranges. With a properly sighted in red/green dot there are no issues finding the dot. Dots are adjustable. If one adjusts the red/green dot to hit where the iron sights are aiming then you do not have to shift your grip or hold to compensate for the dot. Raise the pistol the same way you do with your irons and there is your dot.
When the red dot is mounted on the P365 the additional height makes concealing the pistol a bit more difficult, Another issue is that with an IWB holster the red dot uncomfortably digs into your body. That issue goes away with a OWB holster, but so does the concealment. For us ladies who favor in the bra holsters they are way to uncomfortable when poking into sensitive areas. Conversely my Kimber Micro 9 has a laser in the grips that also comes on as soon as you grip the firearm.
Are red/green dots practical? I have to say yes for service firearms, not so much for concealed carry. Vortex has come out with a new line of red dot called the Defender series. They are more compact than previous red/green dots. Prices range from $349.99 to $599.99 dependent upon what features you want including a solar option. I'm considering a Defender - ccw with a 3moa green dot. It may find it's way onto the P365 and hopefully with it's smaller size will be usable with a IWB CCW holster.
